Wikipedia Talk:Notability (academic Journals)
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What databases are and aren't selective?

I think there should be more information on this page about which databases are and aren't selective, as per criterion 1b. For example, I just came across American Journal of Applied Sciences and wasn't sure if it meets this guideline, as it is indexed in some databases, but none that I know are selective (SCI, PubMed, etc.) [1] I'm wondering what other editors think about this issue generally and w/regard to this journal specifically. Everymorning (talk) 20:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

According to MIAR, it's in Scopus, which we consider selective enough usually. It's also in Aerospace Database, Civil Engineering Abtracts, INSPEC, Metadex, and Communication Abstracts, although I have no idea about those databases' criteria for inclusion. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:48, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Dictionary definition of guideline

user:Headbomb please explain why in this diff it makes sense to cite the dictionary definition of "guideline". Jytdog (talk) 16:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

@Randykitty:, mind restoring the longstanding version while this is being discussed? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That's non responsive but does demonstrate the kind of GANG behavior that leads the community to nominate projects for deletion. Recorded. Jytdog (talk) 16:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@Jytdog: simple: The word "guideline" is what is meant in its common sense, to distinguish from WP:GUIDELINE, which isn't meant. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
WP:Guideline has a meaning, especially here in a sentence that says "This is a X", a document which is very much in the WP:P&G regime. As you well know. If you wish to have this be a guideline and be able to say "this is a guideline" please put this through the process to elevate it to a guideline. Jytdog (talk) 16:45, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
And "This guideline essay" makes that clear that this is a guideline essay, and not a guideline. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
No, it is tendentious garble. Jytdog (talk) 16:49, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
No, it's the longstanding meaning of these words as written. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
To get around all of the jargon I tend to use the word guidance when referring to anything like this where I neither know nor care whether it is guideline/essay/explanatory essay/random meanderings which address the point or whatever. Jbh Talk 17:11, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
yep that is what i suggested below. Jytdog (talk) 17:16, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Would be acceptable to me, too. --Randykitty (talk) 17:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I could live with guidance, assuming it makes grammatical sense. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

+-------------------------+ so this? Jytdog (talk) 17:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

More like this (with a few this/these substitutions + grammar tweaks, it was a quick pass). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:51, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
once again overselling. This is an essay. Using "guidance" that way is straight down the same "dictionary sense of guideline" smoke and mirrors as where this started. This is an WP:essay. If you want to make it a guideline then do the work to make one. Jytdog (talk) 19:14, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
There is no overselling, you're simply being obstructionist. You don't apply essays, you apply guidelines (or guidance). Saying "applying this essay" would be like "apply this book". You don't apply a book, you apply the guidelines/guidance contained in the book. Same thing here. As for the smoke and mirrors, you really ought to look in the mirror. Everyone agreed, including you, that "guidance" was suitable, but you now claim it's not because of your downright hatred of the advice contained in this guideline. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Once again with the twisted semantics. I do not support the oversold version. It is silly and kind of pitiful. And again with the crazy paranoid "you are doing this because you hate it" nonsense. I wrote below that I think this could be a guideline. I oppose promotional bullshit everywhere in WP. It is not complicated. Jytdog (talk) 19:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Except for the glaring fact that there is nothing promotional on that proposal. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:58, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Jytdog, the banner on top of the page clearly says this is an essay. At one time it was proposed to be accepted as a guideline, so that is the terminology used throughout. I don't see much of a problem with that. At the same time, I don't see much problem with replacing "guideline" with "essay", it won't change anything to current practice. You're both editors that I value highly and it pains me to see you butting heads like this. Jytdog, I know that we disagree about which academic journals merit inclusion. Some people, like DGG, are rather inclusionist (but don't forget those far more extreme people all over WP who think that any journal should be included). Headbomb is somewhere in the middle, I'm more deletionist than either of them. And you are at the other extreme... :-) But we all have several things in common: a determination to keep abusive ("predatory") journals out, keep good journals in, and generally stive to better the encyclopedia. We just differ on where to put the bar. Trying to do away with NJournals completely (which I hope you'll admit is behind your effort to replace "guideline" with "essay") is, in my considered opinion, counterproductive. Instead of fighting about wording, it would be a far better use of our time as editors to clean up the many journal articles that have never been edited by anybody from this project (and a lot of rubbish and promotional stuff is hidden there), or, perhaps even better, to try to come up with notability criteria for journals that are acceptable to all of us, which would make it much easier to get non-notable journals deleted. --Randykitty (talk) 17:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
    • The initial change was made by someone else, and it was a good change. And no I have no desire to "get rid of NJOURNALS" which is a horribly bad faith thing to even bring up. But the more you all play the walled garden game like you just did there, the more evidence you give that we should consider it.
    • btw in the lead, "This essay provides guidance about X" would be fine. Jytdog (talk) 17:03, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Come on, don't you remember this? How is it bad faith when I say that you would like to do away with NJournals? And how is it "playing the walles garden game" when I participate in this discussion --Randykitty (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
That was a reaction to the exact same kind of tendentious behavior being displayed here. Again. Jytdog (talk) 17:14, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Rather than playing this aspirational game with semantics, why not nominate this to be elevated to guideline status and see if it flies? it might do. Jytdog (talk) 17:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • That seems a reasonable thing to try. XOR'easter (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately (and I agree that this would be the reasonable thing to do), I don't think it'll fly, based on my experiences of the past several years. Personally, I'd like to have NJournals tightened, because I think that too many marginal journals pass. Some want it tightened even more, basically requiring that GNG is met with in-depth discussions (and not accepting in-depth analyses of, say, citation metrics as such). And then there's a crowd of people who'd like to pull all NJournal's teeth and basically declare that WP:N does not apply to academic journals and that every non-predatory journal should be included (happily forgetting that you'll need sources confirming that a journal is not predatory...). You're welcome to try and I'll participate in the discussion, but I think that's heading to a firm "no consensus"... --Randykitty (talk) 17:16, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Personally the fact that it's attacked both as too permissive (by people so hellbent on purging everything predatory/low quality that they're willing to burn good notable content as long as it means predatory is out) and too restrictive (by people hellbent on keeping all legit journals, even if they made no impact) means it's hitting the sweet spot of where it should be. The main issue is people insist on reading this as a rule, rather than guideline, and leave their brains at the door and forget that WP:IAR is a thing. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • all WP guidelines (in whatever sense of the word) have meaning only in the manner in which they are interpreted, and effect only to the extent that they are followed. Just as we make our own rules; we do our own interpetation and our own enforcement, and allow our own exceptions. Our interpretations and the enforcement are whatever the consensus decides to do in individual cases. That's inevitable in a system like ours with no formal bureaucracy to enforce consistency.
I have learned ove the years that it is usually not wise to change the wording of long-standing wording of guidelines or policies at Wikipedia. Ther existing wording has its accompaniment of interpretation, which can cause confusion if the wording is modified, and there is considerable risk of unanticipated effects of the changes. If we value consistency andrationality, rather than getting what result wre individually prefer, aa a stable situation is better. Only with some degree of predictability can we realistically evaluate existing problems, or guide newcomers. Speaking for myself, I want to work in a practical way on problems, not reargue policy and guidelines from their fundamental principles every week from now to forwever.   DGG ( talk ) 01:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Rolled out an update version, per consensus that 'guidance' is suitable. Other spelling/grammar tweaks piggybacked on it. Also @DGG: you might want to copy-edit that previous post of yours, there's a bit more spelling mistakes than usual. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:03, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
the overselling actually diminishes the credibility of this essay; pitiful really. I won't stoop to dealing with this further. Jytdog (talk) 13:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
I think that Headbomb's changes are improvements, even if they are perhaps not perfect. Jytdog, please don't leave the discussion. Instead, could you propose a wording that addresses your concerns (and might be acceptable for other editors here)? Where is this essay overselling and how can we address that? --Randykitty (talk) 14:46, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Notability of reliable sources - new essay

I drafted

In this documentation I raise the issue of conferring notability to a source to have its own resource article based on its popularity as a citation in resource article reference sections. I would appreciate any comments on the talk page.

This could apply to newspapers, academic journals, other periodicals, and databases which are popular as reliable sources that resource articles cite. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:54, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure on this. I think we should have some "page" equivalent to Special:BookSources for an RS that gets more than 100-1000 uses (and deemed RS), but still doesn't necessitate a stand-alone article. This probably applies a lot to journals. --Masem (t) 16:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
I moved it to Resource: Notability of reliable sources so it's not confused for guidance/guidelines. It raises interesting questions in general, but I'm not sure if there's anything to be done about any of it. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion of Criterion 1b in relation to the Directory of Open Access Journals

I want to respectfully point out that it is no longer true that the Directory of Open Access Journals is "non-selective". Since 2014 [1] it has been weeding out poor quality journals that do not meet its best practice guidelines [2]. For instance in 2016 it was announced that 3,300 journals had been delisted from it [3]. It is therefore incorrect to refer to DOAJ as "non-selective" when clearly there is a lot of selectivity going on in which journals are DOAJ-indexed and which are not DOAJ-indexed.

May I propose that DOAJ-indexed journals become considerable for notability under Criterion 1b? This would be an important change to improve the global equality of what we consider 'notable'. Both Scopus and Clarivate's Web of Science indexes are well known to arbitrarily exclude the vast majority of South American journals [4]. DOAJ is a little more inclusive of Global South journals, but also still selective of quality journals only. Metacladistics (talk) 11:55, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

It is still non-selective in the sense intended for this guideline. DOAJ's criteria is basically Open + Non-predatory, regardless of impact. Scopus and Web of Science are selective because they only index (or at least aim to) the top journals. The vast majority of South American journals are not indexed by these services simply because pretty much no one follows them, unlike say Revista Mexicana de Astronomía y Astrofísica or Revista Mexicana de Ciencias Geológicas, which are indexed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:04, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Perth International Law Journal

I came across this draft in the WP:AFC queue. I wonder if members of the project could advise as to notability. As an open-access, student journal, I'm inclined to decline, but wanted to ask here first. --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Hard to say. The article looks general good, and most law journals/law reviews are student runs, so that's not really a strike against. WP:LAW would have insight here. It might be best to have an article on UWA International Law Club instead, and have the info about the journal there. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:34, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you; I asked over at the LAW project. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

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